Blue Dream: Maxarya Ray 2 Semi Recumbent w/high eff mid drive

[neptronix]

I love my suburbs. That is all.

A practical recumbent pedal-electric hybrid vehicle to be used as a car substitute needs to be usable at flow-of-traffic speeds in both rural and urban environments, over bad roads, with stability and ease of control, without critical components failing from normal use.

Agree, with electric power comes the opportunity to shed many of the constraints of the solely human powered vehicle & produce something as sturdy as a motorcycle, instead of an exercise machine.

Way too many in this industry still thinking inside a box that no longer exists. It's aggravating.

It is for this reason that OP can't go wrong with a well-built full-suspension trike with a DIY faring. Consider an HP Velotechnik FS or a Steintrikes Mad Max as a donor. Operate it in a manner that doesn't scream "illegal" and you're probably not going to have issues with police. I'd recommend a full-suspension recumbent quad instead, but that 4th wheel imposes unwanted legal issues with regard to operation on public roads in most of the USA.

HP Velotechnik has always been a real disappointment to me. Bikes look great, but always have short wheelbases, high bottom brackets, low visibility, loud chain direction mechanisms, and frames with crazy angles that would be difficult to mount anything to.

Azub a little better but still below my radar for only offering SWBs.

Trikes are a nah, i get their benefits, but they're too hard to carry up to the second story!

This is approximate to what i'd really like, but longer and with a lower frontend ( 24"? ). Unfortunately the pictured bike is a one-off and there seems to be nothing like it on the market.

 

[Warren]

This is approximate to what i'd really like, but longer and with a lower frontend ( 24"? ). Unfortunately the pictured bike is a one-off and there seems to be nothing like it on the market.

View attachment 361792

My perfect electric assist recumbent has a 60" WB, with the bottom bracket directly over the front axle, above seat direct steering, dual 406 mm rims for bike and scooter tire options. Seat bottom height 24", bottom bracket height 30", seatback laid back at 45 degrees...no more.

 

[maiz]

My perfect electric assist recumbent has a 60" WB, with the bottom bracket directly over the front axle, above seat direct steering, dual 406 mm rims for bike and scooter tire options. Seat bottom height 24", bottom bracket height 30", seatback laid back at 45 degrees...no more.

Is it a bacchetta café?

 

[neptronix]

My perfect electric assist recumbent has a 60" WB, with the bottom bracket directly over the front axle, above seat direct steering, dual 406 mm rims for bike and scooter tire options. Seat bottom height 24", bottom bracket height 30", seatback laid back at 45 degrees...no more.

Sounds about right!

For a moment i considered the longbikes slipstream with it's mega long chromoly frame.. there are many reports of it feeling like it has suspension.. it looks like we don't have a ton of fork offset so a super fat rear tire and front suspension fork would probably produce a good ride quality at speed.



On the other hand, with me being 6 ft tall, the right sized one would be a nightmare to get in/out of my second story apartment.. so.. not the right choice for me RN.


Got Maxarya on the line.. they say they can build me a test swingarm with an additional 2 inches.. this swingarm can take a 20 or 22 inch rear wheel. Tech dude at Maxarya thinks we can shift weight forward by 10% with this.

They will send me information about it in a few days.

They say my front fork is way less than ideal.. ~38mm offset but the stock is 65mm. The funny thing is that the steering is allright considering this.. probably due to insanely wide handlebars. He says a difference as small as 5mm matters. This makes me think the mentioned suspension fork with 45mm offset would be a good buy.

I'm thinking we continue the experiment.. your thoughts?

 

[PaPaSteve]

Here is a weight balance check sheet that can be used to see how much 2" change to the swing arm will give.
Balance check sheet is used to find weight center on a car before lifting with a two post lift.
Locate where the current weight center resides on your bike.
Keep all the front numbers
Change the the number for the rear wheel by 2" . . . see what happens.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Trail / castor . . . is different then fork offset.
Amount of trail is part of what creates system feedback.
What happens at the ground between the steer angle and tire contact patch is the important part.
Original ridged fork was shorter verse the suspension fork ?
Suspension fork raised the front of the bike which in turn changes the steering angle.
Do some measurements.

 

[neptronix]

What is the RDL on a bike like this? the absolute front of the bike, IE the left edge of the front tire? We don't have any front overhang like the above vehicle.

I can buy another scale and have my lady observe the numbers with me sitting on the bike.


Net height change in the front versus rear is +/- 5mm once the front sags, but we have 27mm less offset than the OE fork. With this h2o 20" suspension fork, we can have 20mm less offset and the same front/rear balance as before, but we're basically at the limit with what we can do to get back to stock heights @ 20 x 3.0" rear and 20 x 2.0" front.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Absolute front of bike tire will work.
One scale is enough, use books or blocks of wood to replicate the thickness of the scale.
Measure one end, switch scale with books / blocks, measure again.
Suspension sag should be no more than 30% of total travel with rider in position.

 

[Warren]

Is it a bacchetta café?

No, but they got close. I used too have a huge collection of recumbent books, and magazines. Several engineering professors, had assigned their students the project of designing the perfect recumbent. One group, in Austria I think, came up with the bike I described. Others, in other countries, came up with similar designs.

I sent my recumbent literature collection to the University of California engineering school a decade ago.

 

[neptronix]

So i've yet to hear back from Maxarya about this longer rear swingarm. I need to poke them.

Found this the other day:
Pendulum Pedal — Øutlier

At the expense of some added pedal width, this drops the foot position by 12mm on an upright, which would allow me to move forward 12mm.

So between this and the front BB position hack, i can go forward about an inch. That's enough to make a difference.

Short on cash for bike stuff, and also short on good weather to ride... will get back to this build in early spring.

 

[rhauff]

So i've yet to hear back from Maxarya about this longer rear swingarm. I need to poke them.

Found this the other day:
Pendulum Pedal — Øutlier
View attachment 362263
At the expense of some added pedal width, this drops the foot position by 12mm on an upright, which would allow me to move forward 12mm.

So between this and the front BB position hack, i can go forward about an inch. That's enough to make a difference.

Short on cash for bike stuff, and also short on good weather to ride... will get back to this build in early spring.

Don't forget, this pedal will increase your Q factor, as your foot is beside the bearing rather than on top. Maybe 30-40mm increase?

 

[neptronix]

Yep, i'm aware. I don't think the added offset will be that big, though.

 

[neptronix]

Did some more pedal research.

My current pedals are thin but there's about an inch between the crank and useable pedal. This is slightly above average.
Looks like the expensive pedal that drops the rider's foot position is roughly the same.



The same company, shanmashu, makes a bit thinner pedal that puts the usable pedal about 1/2 inch inwards!


I imagine this will help correct for the additional Q factor on this bike. Nice; it frees up some Q factor budget for using a wider BB + wider front shock, making that more feasible
Per the shape of the pedal, i might also be able to remove 2.5mm of peg, putting me forward 4mm aka 1/6 of an inch versus my existing pedal.

The expensive fancy pedal ships in 6 months after ordering. I think i'm gonna get the cheapie, hold off, and wait for reviews on the more expensive one.

 

[99t4]

I imagine this will help correct for the additional Q factor on this bike. Nice; it frees up some Q factor budget...

Maybe, maybe not. I run common large spiked platform pedals, these days wearing either Sperry boating shoes or skateboarding shoes. (One of my favorite aspects of riding an ebike in town is not having to deal with uncomfortably walking around in clacky clipless shoes every time I dismount to participate in my territorial activities.) Foot placement on these pedals can be widely variable, i.e. can have the feet placed so close inwards that the shoes rub on the crank arms each revolution, or farther outwards. Either way is well enough supported. I do seem to have a comfort preference-- far inwards so almost touching the crank arms, ball of foot centered over the pedal axle, aimed straight ahead or slightly pigeon-toed.

What I'm saying here is you may be chasing something not important? Do your current (platform?) pedals preclude you from comfortably pedaling with your feet in their lowest Q-position? (furthest inwards almost to crank arm rub?)

 

[neptronix]

Okay i did some exact measurements on the two pedals i use.

Mini Hiryuu pedal, 3/4 inch to usable pedal Heel to crank contact: none Edge of shoe position: millimeters away from the crank

Maxarya pedal, 1 1/4 inches to usable pedal Heel to crank contact: none Edge of shoe position: about 1/2 inch away from the crankarm

So i'm thinking the 'big dog' pedal would reduce the Q factor versus the existing Maxarya pedal, and also the height is lower.

 

[Guerney]

Behold and marvel at the distance between crank arm and usable pedal of my excellent, well made and robust MKS folding pedals, crafted by unemployed ex-Samurai and ninja swordsmiths:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004ALNICM

They used to look like this:

 

[neptronix]

Wow, didn't know they got that narrow!

 

[PaPaSteve]

Early 70's Shimano Durace dyna-drive cranks had the pedal bearings in the crank arms.
Bespoke Shimano pedals of course as any common pedal would not work.
Pedal platform was on the spindle centerline as per what your seeking to accomplish.
This was before the LOOK clipless pedal debut.

 

[Guerney]

Wow, didn't know they got that narrow!

MKS folding pedals: could be why I was mystified by your mention of high Q-factor on BBSXX(X) motors? I've never sensed that there is any high Q-factor on my BBS01B. They're very robust pedals by the way, and useful when propping up the bike against walls. You don't scrape a shin when passing by your bike in narrow hallways. Huge upgrade to the standard crap plasticy Dahon jobbies, but heavier. The tread plate is deep enough to maintain a grip, even when wearing very muddy boots after doing a spot of gardening in heavy rain.

 

[maiz]

Wow, didn't know they got that narrow!

FD-7 WIDE | MIKASHIMA INDUSTRIAL CO,.LTD

Also come in a wide option as of this year. Same Q.

 

[Guerney]

FD-7 WIDE | MIKASHIMA INDUSTRIAL CO,.LTD

Also come in a wide option as of this year. Same Q.

The cycling Yetis of Mount Fuji will be disappointed there isn't more usable treadplate for their massive furry feet.

 

[Chalo]

My current pedals are thin but there's about an inch between the crank and useable pedal.

I've never bothered to notice how much distance there is between the crank arm and the pedal platform, because I put my feet where they feel right. I know that I don't need "usable pedal" all the way to the edge of my shoe, because on some of my bikes I often hear my shoe soles squeaking as they lightly rub on the crank arm.

On other bikes, often my shoes hang off the outer edge of the pedal by more than an inch.

These observations are related to why I don't use any kind of foot attachment anymore, despite having spent many years using clips & straps, then Shimano SPD, and later Time ATAC pedals. Now that I only use flat pedals, my feet decide where they go.

 

[neptronix]

You probably have a wider stance than me, and more outward angle on your feet, which is why you tolerate wide pedals just fine, but can easily get into heel -> crank arm contact if they are not far enough from the crank.

The foot will naturally gravitate to where it can push first ( where there is enough pedal to transfer power ), then where it is most comfortable, and end up in a position somewhere between that zone.

In my case, i have a super narrow step and my feet point forward more than average. The move from a 113mm bottom bracket to a 128mm bottom bracket makes my legs on the border of uncomfortable while pedaling. This is from only 7mm of additional offset on each side.

..and i probably need a 135mm wide BB to accommodate a much nicer 20" suspension fork. That would produce another 3.5mm on each side.

With the pedals being swapped to ones that put useable pedal 12.7mm more outwards than what was stock, i'm thinking my pedals are responsible for more unwanted extra Q factor than the BB, given that i don't have room to put my feet more inward.


As far as clipped pedals go, yeah, i'm negative on those too. The human foot is incredibly complicated + varied in shape, size, and angle. Fixing a dynamic system in place isn't a good idea unless you really, really know what you're doing.

 

[neptronix]

Got that 'big dog' aliexpress pedal finally.

My theory was right.. due to there being more metal inwards of the pedal than most pedals, i can stand more inwards. My wide feet like it too. And the pedal is the thinnest of the thin pedals i own. Score.

Here's a natural foot position after pedaling it for a few miles on the upright:



From a motion perspective, feels like it removed some extra Q factor while pedaling. Really happy!

 

[Chalo]

From a motion perspective, feels like it removed some extra Q factor while pedaling. Really happy!

That's good. It can only help with the characteristic recumbent bike pedal induced steering. I haven't ridden a Cannondale or Maxarya CLWB bike, but all the other 'bent two-wheelers I've tried tend to zigzag when pedaled, to one degree or another. Narrower Q means a shorter lever by which to do this, and less upper body work to keep it tracking reasonably straight.